Joaquin Phoenix - No Bullsh-t

Joaquin Phoenix is a real-life anti-hero, an incessant smoker whose talent is beyond measure, and whose impact on moviemaking is presently peered only by lists that include Christian Bale, Russell Crowe and Ryan Gosling. There is also a mystery that shrouds Phoenix that he deftly disarms by claiming a nonchalant attitude to the industry in which he makes his mark, and we respect his right to be reserved only because we've grown up with newspaper reiterations of his hurt and have not been privy to reports that reveal Phoenix's sardonic sense of humor.

Whether he's considered brash or bashful is neither here nor there - for what truly affects us is his work - the manipulated teen in To Die For, the pained prince robbed of his status in Gladiator and, of course, his soul-baring embodiment of Johnny Cash in Walk the Line, a much-lauded role that seemed to bleed Phoenix wet for a time and in which he delved so deeply as to require a dose of detox.

This fall, we're treated to two Phoenician performances. The first, in Reservation Road, lands Phoenix in the part of Ethan Learner, a professor whose prodigal son is struck down and killed by a hit-and-run driver, an incident that prompts Phoenix's character to relentlessly pursue a faceless perpetrator (portrayed by Mark Ruffalo). The second, as New York nightclub manager, Bobby Green, in We Own the Night - a mob story acquired in a bidding war by Columbia Pictures after its Festival de Cannes premiere.

Catching Joaquin freshly unshaved the morning before the premiere of Reservation Road at the Toronto International Film Festival, he seems to enjoy a friendly self-deprecating joust with a journalist who may just think that Phoenix invests more into his work than the actor readily admits, and, for whom, Phoenix's work demands acclaim regardless of whether such accolades burden the actor with a not-so-quiet discomfort.

Moving Pictures: So how did you begin to inhabit this role of Ethan Learner? Did you have the choice of portraying Dwight Arno, the role Mark Ruffalo took on?
Joaquin Phoenix: I did. I was very fortunate. Usually, I am cast kind of last-minute, as a last-ditch kind of desperate attempt to get somebody because the other actors, the talented ones, are, you know, busy. And somehow, this one I got first, which is an indication that it was a very, very bad script.

But somehow it just slipped through the cracks, and that was very fortunate. But I don't think that I... "To inhabit the role"? I don't even know what the hell that means - to inhabit the role.

I mean, actors show up. They have these big marks on the floor where you're supposed to stand. They have stuff written in advance. You don't even have to remember it. You can have somebody yell it to you. It's a piece of cake. There's no inhabiting. You actually don't have to really do anything except what's right in front of you. It's the greatest job in the world!

MP: Is it cool working with a director a second time? I know James Gray, you got to work with a couple of times, and M. Night Shayamalan.
Phoenix: Oh yeah. I forgot I worked with Night twice. I don't really like it. I don't think it's ideal, because I think that it's that much harder to convince people the second time. When you become good friends with somebody, then you can start telling when they're being false about something or when they're being overtly enthusiastic or just trying to impress, and you kind of go like, "Oh! That's not you! What are you doing?"

But if you don't know the person, you've got no frame of reference, you go, "Oh, that's pretty good." So that first time you work with somebody, you can get away with all sorts of f-cking sh-t because they don't know you, but now you've worked together, it's like, "Oh please! You're totally bullsh-tting! I can tell that you're not into this at all!" So it's interesting, you know. And, as always, it's nice to have a good relationship with the writer so you can try and ensure you have good lines and more than the other actors, which is my big need. My biggest note to Terry when we work together is, "Just as long as I have more dialogue than anyone else, I'm fine."

[Phoenix drops the bantering tone] It actually became a joke, because I was constantly trying to cut out my lines.

MP: I loved the one-on-one scenes in this film - between you and Mark, between you and Jennifer Connelly. There was a quiet intensity that was building. Is that part of the thrill for you in being an actor - those one-on-one moments with other great actors?
Phoenix: No. I mean, I most like it when I'm alone in the room. When it's just me and the camera, just dancing with each other, holding each other... [He drops the sarcasm] I mean, it certainly is one of the things that you love. It's great to discover something with someone else and to react to that, and for it to be different or for people to surprise you in a scene. That is wonderful.

MP: Like that moment where it's just you and Mark with your mind games: You bring him to the scene where your son was struck by his car...
Phoenix: That scene in particular was just f-cking miserable to shoot. Because the thing is, you know - and I haven't seen the movie; it may be a good scene - but you're there, and just off-frame are, like, cops that are holding back traffic, and then there's, like, a few Guatemalan tourists that are taking your picture, and you're sick from the local dining, sh-t like that. So you're trying to get rid of sh-t like that from your f-cking head and you're trying to make this make sense and... I don't think you ever - I've never had the experience of being in the midst of a scene going, "Oh man! We're doing it! We're living. I'm feeling it."

I remember, the one time that I was like, "I found it! I found it! I got it." It's literally the worst thing in the world. For some reason the moment that you lock on - you feel like you know something or that you're working on the "experiences with an actor. We're going through this" - it all goes to sh-t. I don't have the ability to, like, to be objective, you know, when I'm working. I don't know; I'm just kind of experiencing it, I suppose?

MP: What's it like working with a kid like Elle Fanning, who just seems so aware and vulnerable and understanding?
Phoenix: Just fuels envy, rage; I'm very tired of being set up by this girl. It's [again turns off the sarcasm] - no, it's amazing. You know, she has what we all want. You know? She has what you're trying to give her and the ability just to be in the moment and to react.

It's a beautiful thing to witness somebody experiencing that, you know, where from take to take she, literally - it just depended on what was happening around her. There's one take where she seems in shock, and then the next take she's bawling her eyes out because Jennifer suddenly starts crying. And she's just completely reacting to what's happening in the room, and it's extraordinary. And that's all that you want.

MP: The cool thing, also, is even though it's set in a preppy East Coast environment, it doesn't lose its context in the world: There are incidents with the Arab diplomat, discussions in Ethan's classroom between students of different races... There's been a lot of press commenting on how it feels we're returning to filmmaking sensitivities of the '70s. Does that make it a more exciting time to be an actor?
Phoenix: Absolutely. I wonder whether there's always the relevant equivalent. You know what I mean? I don't know because I don't watch all the movies, but I think it's undeniable - we're seeing the effects of war and of the U.S.'s policies, and we're seeing that bleed into film and into all expression and all art. It's unbelievable. It's a weird thing to say because it's a shame that it should take that, because - I was thinking about that recently. I was thinking about the '60s and '70s doing - those motherf-ckers were unbelievable. I mean, they had the greatest music in this period, the greatest films, and then what happens? You know, and it's an awful - I'd rather just be in crap movies than it require the death of thousands of innocent people in order to make art interesting, you know, if it's one or the other.

MP: Is the L.A.-based charity, The Art of Elysium [which sends artists of various expression to children's hospitals] something that you get involved with because you believe in that particular cause, or is just that the charity's founder, Jennifer Howell, is a hard person to say "no" to?
Phoenix: First of all, let's just say for argument's sake that if I thought that Jennifer Howell was hard to say "no" to, do you think that I'd actually - at what point, actually, would I admit that, first of all? But no; honestly, it's amazing. I've seen the effects of the program.

I was there, you know. I went to a hospital out in the Valley when it was the first time that Jennifer had gone down there, and over the course of a month saw the change. And it's pretty amazing. So that's why I'm involved.

MP: Toronto is now known as being somewhat of a launching pad for Oscar campaigns. Do you pay attention to that side of it all?
Phoenix: Well, look man - you know, there's the truth and then there's the politically savvy think to say, and I'm prone to tell you the truth. Just: Those kinds of things are helpful if you want to keep making movies, and that's about all that it's worth.

I mean, I think that the very simple fact is, accolades are - they're actually translated into currency. And that's really all that it's about. That's all that it ever was about. Occasionally, there's something where you feel like it's an honor. It's weird... But then I think about other people. Like I think about Casey Affleck, and... I've heard [Gone, Baby, Gone] is amazing... Casey - I haven't seen it yet, but I know how hard he worked in prepping for Jesse James. So I think you hear stuff like that, and you go like, "Oh, f-ck! I love hearing that my friend's work, that people are responding to it." ... It makes me excited for him. But I think that if ever I've heard that sort of stuff, I'd think it's kind of ridiculous.

MP: Can you not appreciate your work, even with the benefit of time?
Phoenix: I appreciate the work. I appreciate the process all the time. You know? The end result. I mean, I haven't seen the end result of the last six or seven movies I've done, and I don't - and I don't think that I would derive any pleasure from it.

MP: Well, watching the film, one feels or assumes you were suffering this loss of a child, that you may have had this pit in your stomach or a lump in your throat the entire shoot...
Phoenix: And the most horrible - it's one of those things that you don't even know what to say because, again, you don't want to affect how an audience views a movie based on the interview that they read with you, and how you felt about something.

I mean, I can't f-cking read about people I love. I can't read about The Beatles. I can't - because it breaks my heart because I want to believe that, like, there was this unbelievable epiphanous moment before this song was written, and it's just, like, "No, we were just, you know, sitting around." You know what I mean? It's, like, heartbreaking.

You'd be - like [when you] hear, "Mother!" you don't want to think that the producer's going, like, "John, when you screamed ‘Mother!' this last take, you sounded a little too guttural. Try and ease off a little bit when you scream ‘Mother!' All right, let's go. Roll!" You don't want to hear that.

You want to think that there was one take, and he was just, like, "Mother!!!!" and that thing just came right out, and he's, like, "Aw, you know, I just thought it'd be f-cking effective," - or whatever the hell it is. I don't know if that's the right example, because maybe he actually was screaming. I don't know. But I don't want to find out. Do you know what I mean?

MP: I know you said you don't watch much film. Were there moments growing up when you did enjoy going to the movies?
Phoenix: Not that I can recall.

MP: Was music a bigger inspiration?
Phoenix: No, but I would much rather - yeah, I would have much rather listened to Abbey Road than seen a movie. But I do like - I like movies, but I don't like movie audiences. I don't like the collective energy in the theater. It makes me quite uncomfortable. And I don't like being swayed by other people's feelings.

MP: We Own the Night was released in the fall, also. Was being reunited with James Gray and Mark Wahlberg reminiscent of your time on The Yards?
Phoenix: It didn't remind me of my time on The Yards, but it was nice to work with him. Again, it can also be difficult to work with people that you know from previous experience, but I love working with those guys, you know, so much that I'd do it again in a second.

Image, top: Phoenix in Reservation Road
Photography by Michael Muller / Corbis Outline